Talk About Cancer

When my vagina broke

• Episode 37

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Anna explained how cancer treatment “broke” her vagina and the challenges with dating when she took sexual intercourse off the table. Her experiences inspired her to create the Entwine dating app to help others like her find companionship with confidence.

You can follow the app on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter!

Please follow the podcast if these stories are resonating with you. I would also be grateful if you can leave an honest rating and review so I know if I am serving the interests and needs of you listeners out there.

Have topic suggestions or feedback about the show?  Contact me on Instagram or email me at talkaboutcancerpodcast@gmail.com.

Thank you for listening!

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My reflections on the conversation:

I know this episode probably feels different from the rest because Anna and I ended up going on a deep dive about her experience with vaginismus, but I thought it was important that we give space for this topic because even though Anna’s experience is specific to having vaginismus, her underlying message is relevant to anyone dealing with sexual limitations after cancer treatment.

Anna reminded us that sex and intimacy can come in many forms, and when our loved ones’ sexual needs change because of serious health issues or emotional stress, expanding our definitions of sex and intimacy can give us more options for supporting each other’s needs.

Thanks again to Anna for sharing her own experience with such openness and a sense of humor. Go check out Entwine so you can explore dating with more confidence again! 

SPEAKER_00:

Hey everybody, this is Serena, your host for the Talk About Cancer Podcast, where I talk to cancer patients, survivors, and caregivers about their experiences dealing with cancer. We're all given treatment plans when cancer shows up in our lives, but no one gives us plans for navigating the hard conversations we need to have and the relationship challenges that will inevitably come up. This podcast is meant to help fill that gap for those dealing with cancer. I think of it as an on-demand audio support group where listeners can hear about others' experiences managing similar problems, but most importantly, get insights about how our loved ones are feeling on this journey, none of us signed up for, and better understand where they may be needing support. In today's episode, Anna talked about how cancer treatment broke her vagina and the challenges in dating when she took sexual intercourse off the table. Her experiences inspired her to create the Entwine Dating app to help others struggling to find companionship due to sexual limitations. Let's dive into her story now, and I will check back in with you at the end. Welcome to the Talk About Cancer Podcast. Let's start with a quick intro and have you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you're from, and anything else you would like to share with our listeners. Thank you, Serena.

SPEAKER_01:

First, I'd like to say thank you so much for having me on your show. Very excited to talk to you today. My name is Anna, and I'm 45 years old. I live in the suburb of Chicago, and I'm a single mom with an 18-year-old son and a 14-year-old daughter. I was diagnosed with breast cancer nine years ago when I was 36 years old. I went through chemotherapy, seven surgeries, which included a double mastectomy, reconstructive surgery, and also a total hysterectomy, which forced me into menopause at a very young age, which made my libido pretty much non-existent. And I also developed a condition called baginismus prior to my diagnosis of breast cancer, which ended up getting worse. So I realized I was not alone. A lot of the cancer survivors out there were struggling with not having libido or painful intercourse. I was married for 20 years. I got divorced a couple of years ago. Then I realized, what am I going to do? How am I going to enter a dating scene? How am I going to go on a traditional dating app and find someone that would understand my sexual limitations? And I realized that there really wasn't an answer for me. And what I did was I created a dating app that is designed for men and women that do have sexual dysfunction or limitations. It's available in the US, and I'm really happy about it. That's just my passion right now is helping people. Ever since I got diagnosed, I always wanted to help people, and that's why I created Entwine, which is a dating app that takes sexual expectations out of dating. I'm just super excited about it. And I think it's just an a topic that a lot of people don't like to talk about. It doesn't even have to be cancer related. Uh it could be any kind of diagnosis, whether it be a cardiac condition or medication, such as antidepressants that can cause uh libido issues or erectile dysfunction in men. So yeah, so I created a that app and I just wanted to make something positive out of a bad diagnosis, but yeah, I'm really excited about it just to help people.

SPEAKER_00:

It's my main goal. Awesome. So much to talk about and ask in that just in that little bit of background. Um, seven surgeries. Wow, that's a lot. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened there?

SPEAKER_01:

So I found a lump in the shower when I was 36. And uh and I thought, oh, just no cancer history and everything like that. I mean, I'm sure it's nothing. My friend just had her mammogram done. They found a benign tumor. So I'm like, it's probably nothing. So I went to go get it checked out, and and the doctor told me, Yeah, you have cancer after the biopsy. And uh it was shocking, of course. I actually worked in the pathology department at the time at a hospital. Right. So I always see all these cancer diagnoses coming through, and like, oh, that person's young, or that's you know, it's horrible. And right. So then I got scared. I'm like, oh no, this isn't good. Right. But um, you never thought it was gonna happen to me. It did end up happening to me, of course. And uh I'm like, well, what do I do to beat this? So I met with a surgeon. I ended up having uh a one-sided mastectomy, and I didn't heal well. So I was gonna have implants put in. So I had an expander put in. I didn't heal well, there wasn't enough skin. My plastic surgeon at the time was very confident saying that he would be able to fix my issue. He did say that my friends would be jealous of me by the time I was done. I was like, oh, yeah. It's a strange equipment. It is, it was yeah, he was very confident. So I ended up not healing well still, and he kept telling me, come back, come back, come back. So eventually I had to have debrievement surgery. So they took all the dead skin off. And again, as he started feeling expandered in my breast, it started to open again. He said, Oh, you just need back flap surgery. Um, they just basically they take muscle from your back and they they pull it through a tunnel through your side and create a new breast. And I was like, Well, I already had bad back pain. I don't think this is a good idea. And he's like, Oh, you'll be fine. You're you're a pro now, you can handle this. And I was like, I'm a pro? Yeah. Um, I knew there were other options of surgery, but I just didn't know much about it because I only went to one doctor. I never went for a second opinion. Uh, he was very confident, and I thought, he's confident, I'm making the right choice. And unfortunately, it wasn't the right choice. So he told me I wanted to do something with my stomach. I don't know if you're familiar with any of the reconstruction surgery, but basically they have something called a tram flap and then also uh DIEP flap, which I had done with the D I E P, and they don't use muscle, but basically they take tissue and uh fat from your abdomen and they reconstruct your breast. It's a long surgery, it's about 10 to 12 hours, which was you know, of course, scary. But when I talked to the regular plastic surgeon, the one that pretty much ruined my chest, he said, uh, oh, you're not a candidate, go or you'll be fine. You know, so that's why I left him. I finally got the courage to get a second opinion and realized, okay, I can do this surgery instead. It's it's gonna be a long surgery, but it'll be worth it. And because of that, I decided to have a mastectomy on the other side as well, because I'm like, why am I gonna go through this surgery again? Hopefully I would never get the cancer again. So I did go through chemotherapy and everything, and I did have the reconstruction surgery. And uh, you know, it was a rough recovery, but I was so glad that I did it. So basically, I don't have any type of implants or anything like that. But so with that type of surgery, the DIEP flap surgery, it requires reconstruction. It's a slow process. So it's not like a one-time surgery. So six surgeries later, that's when uh I was like, okay, I'm done. I mean, I'm not perfect, but it's okay because I I'm alive.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And with the cancer, mine was estrogen fed. I was at a medication called tamoxifen. I was supposed to be in that on that for 10 years, and that can cause uterine cancer. So I decided I don't want to take a chance for that, and I don't want any estrogen in my body because that's what feeds my cancer. So I decided to have a hysterectomy, a total hysterectomy. So yeah, it was pretty much after all the surgeries ended up being total of seven, but not that I wanted a trophy for it, but yeah, I was like, another surgery, another surgery? Oh, great, great. So it was a long road, but it was it it was all worth it.

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think was holding you back from getting a second opinion? Because I think at some point you said you finally got the courage to then go and seek out another professional opinion. What do you think was stopping you?

SPEAKER_01:

This may seem silly, but I think I was afraid of hurting the doctor's feelings. I work in the doctor's office or a medical field as a secretary since I was 16 years old. So I I had the the benefit of of talking to the doctors I work for and saying, hey, you know, which doctor do you recommend? And, you know, they thought the ones they did refer me to were great. So I thought, okay, that's fine. I don't want to waste any time. This is an aggressive cancer. So let's just hurry up and let's just get this done. So I just didn't want to get a second opinion, but I was glad I did because even with the initial biopsy, the doctor said, you know, you have cancer, but all I want to do is a lumpectomy. We don't need a mastectomy. And I said, Well, how do I know there's no other cancer in my breast? And he's like, No, it's it's okay. We'll just take that out. The mammogram doesn't show anything. And I said, Can you do an MRI? And he said, No, I don't recommend my MRIs. It just causes unnecessary worry. So I said, Okay. So I'm like, you know what? Let me just go to one more doctor just to make sure. And she's like, let's order an MRI. I said, Oh, okay, let's do it. So if we did, and they found another tumor and she biopsied it and it was cancer. So, well, we can't do a lympectomy anymore. We need to do a mastectomy. And I was like, thank goodness I went for a second opinion. You know, so just from having that second opinion, that's when I started realizing, I guess second opinion is pretty important. And even if you like your doctor, you just you never know, there might be something that they're missing, or maybe there's a procedure they don't know how to do. Like my plastic surgeon doesn't know how to do the D I E P flap. That's probably why he didn't tell me I was a candidate because he didn't know how to do it. So I just realized that I have more time now to think, okay, let's get a second opinion, see what else is out there. The other doctor will never find out. And uh, I'm really happy that I did that. That's my biggest advice for people that I do meet. Just get a second opinion and and see what else is out there for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So you mentioned a big word earlier in your intro. I don't think I'm gonna be able to say it. Vaginismus. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Vaginismus. Good old vaginismus. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Can you help us understand what that is? Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Basically, I didn't know I had it. And so when I was growing up, I had endometriosis. And with endometriosis, it caused painful intercourse. And also even putting like tampons in, it was it was painful. And I thought, well, I guess that's supposed that's what it's supposed to be like, you know, so I'll just deal with it. Well, over time, having pain all the time, I think my vagina broke pretty much. Can I say that in your podcast? Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

What does that mean to you when you say your vagina broke?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I was I tried to have intercourse and it was like hitting a wall. Nothing would go in there. And it was like, what is going on? Is something wrong with it? And I didn't know what it was. And I went to the doctor and my gynecologist, and she said, Well, you have vaginis and you're gonna need therapy. I'm like, what kind of therapy? She's like vaginal therapy. I'm like, there's a vaginal therapist out there. I mean, what is vaginism? I mean, I couldn't say it either, you know. Now I just tell the whole world that I have it. It's involuntary spasming of the vaginal uh opening area. And basically the way they described it is somebody comes up to you all the time, and every time you see them, they punch you in the arm. Eventually, over time, when they approach you, you're gonna start flinching and all your muscles are gonna tighten up. So basically that's what's happening with the vaginismus, is that it's so much pain for so many years, it just finally said, you know, no way, you're not getting in there because it was in my head, and it was physically too. It wasn't just a mental thing. Um, you know, a lot of people would say, just drink a glass of wine, just relax, take a Xanax, do this, you know, and are you maybe not the right person? I'm like, and they're going, you don't understand. I'm like, it's it's not something that's in my head. I mean, part of it is because I even explained to them that when I had my vaginal hysterectomy, the doctor is like, you were under anesthesia and everything was spasming. So I couldn't even get any instruments in there. And I'm like, wow. So that's not just in my head.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, and so yeah, vaginismus, there's treatment for it. Uh, you can do uh vaginal therapy with dilators and basically you just graduate from a uh pencil size dilator to what I call a Godzilla size, which I would hope no other no woman in the world would ever have to encounter that if they have vaginismus, especially. But I remember getting my kit and it was like you know, five different sizes, and I looked at size five. I was like, oh my gosh, and I just threw it in my drawer in the back and I just cover it in. I'm like, I'm never gonna use that.

SPEAKER_00:

Wait, how big is that?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my gosh. I don't mean the circumference. It was like like the size of a line, maybe. I don't even know. The line's not really circular, but it was too big, in my opinion, at least. I made it to like the third size, and then I just got tired of it. I'm like, it still hurts. It's it was it's a long process. You have to you have to be consistent. I wasn't consistent with it. And then with the with the cancer, so I had vaginosity before the cancer. So when I got the cancer and the chemotherapy and being forced in the menopause and the vaginal dryness, that's when it even got even worse. And even just the the treatment was like, I can't do this anymore, and I just stopped.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you're like, I got so much else that I'm having to deal with. This is not exactly a number one priority. I'm just trying to survive right now. Yeah. Exactly. Get through seven surgeries. Yeah. Right. Um, so does the endometriosis lead to vaginismus? Am I saying that right?

SPEAKER_01:

It doesn't always, I believe, okay for certain individuals. Okay. Not everybody that has an endometriosis has painful intercourse. I think I just got lucky to have the endometriosis with pain, vaginismus, cancer, forced menopause. But yeah, it's it's not always the case with endometriosis, but that is one of the symptoms is painful intercourse. And a lot of people do, they do have women do have vaginis and they just don't know what it is, like myself. I think I had a form of vaginismus when I couldn't insert tampons, but I just thought, well, it's normal.

SPEAKER_00:

So as you said, so you gave up on the therapy at that point because there are more other important things to worry about.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's also other forms of intimacy as well. It doesn't have to be intercourse, it could be anything externally. And I feel that intimacy can also be kissing, hugging, holding hands, even long conversations. It doesn't always have to be intercourse, but there's a lot of individuals out there that, you know, they say they have to have intercourse, which I get. That's why I thought, you know, I gotta do this dating app too, because it's just there's not it's not fair to us. You know, we've been through enough cancer survivors or just, you know, regular whatever conditions it is. And why do we have to just stay single? That's what I was gonna do. I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna stay single because I got divorced after 20 years. I was with my partner since I was in eighth grade. He was my one and only. Yeah. So after 20 years, I'm like, what am I gonna do? I'm like, how the heck am I gonna date anybody that wasn't gonna understand me? You know, they're gonna probably laugh at me. And and I thought, what do guys do that have ED with erectile dysfunction? I'm like, because I feel like vaginismus is a female version of erectile dysfunction, in my opinion, when I tried to explain it to somebody. It's quite common, unfortunately, people don't know that even have it, the vaginismus.

SPEAKER_00:

So before you decided to create an app and go full public about it, obviously now you have to do that and talk to everybody about your broken vagina, as you say. Were you able to get support from anybody in your personal life when you were dealing with this? Or did you just keep it to yourself and was struggling with it on your own?

SPEAKER_01:

I would tell my girlfriends about it, but when I told my female friends about it, they're there were the ones that are like, well, just have a glass of wine, you know, and they didn't really understand. Yeah. And then I would have to sit there and they're like talking about their sex life. Oh, I did this position and this position, like, oh, ouch. Oh, doesn't that hurt? Whoa. And yeah, it's just it's funny how they're they're sexually active and I'm like the complete opposite. So they understand what I'm going through. But at first they were saying stuff like, just relax, you're not relaxed. I'm like, it's not that. You don't understand, you know. So I never enjoyed intercourse, like never. And even though I have two kids, thank God. But I started feeling sorry for myself a little bit like, why don't I why don't I have this? You know, why why don't I have this these conditions? So my friends were very supportive. We just didn't talk about it much. Yeah. Because it didn't pertain to them, but and I didn't really complain much to them about it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But now I just tell, you know, I guess I'll tell the world. Yeah. It's interesting when I tell guys and girls the difference in responses that I receive.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I feel like sex is for some people, not everybody, but for some people it's a private thing, it's a personal thing. And especially when it comes to limitations that you may have, there's a lot of shame attached to it. And so it's not, you know, your average dinner table topic. Right. But also to your point, intimacy can come in many different forms, but I don't feel like that message is very visible in our culture. How did you get there for yourself? Because I think it's a very it's actually an empowerment in a way to just own it and say, okay, this is the limitation that I have, but I still deserve intimacy. It doesn't mean that I just need to live a lonely life for the rest of my life just because I cannot have intercourse. So how did you get to that point and then which then ultimately launched you towards creating the app? Well, sex is actually could be anything.

SPEAKER_01:

It could be, it doesn't have to be internal penetration. But I thought I still desire being, you know, hugged and or kissed or whatever it is, just even watching, you know, a movie together or whatever and cuddling on the couch. And I thought, that's not fair that I can't be with anybody that will accept me for what I have. And I realized people were saying, like, don't tell people right away that you have this issue. Just meet them, get to know them first, then tell them about your problem. Like, well, that's not fair. Because there's it's also kind of a waste of time because it's a deal breaker.

SPEAKER_00:

It can be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh, I realized my friends were going on dating apps, and they're like, before I even thought about entwined, they were saying, Well, if I go on another date and this guy has 80, I'm gonna scream. And I'm like, save his number. I'm like, I'd rather go out with him, you know. Who knows if I'll be single one day. So then I that's what it is. Everything just kind of clicked when I got divorced. I was like, okay, I really want to be with somebody that can show me affection and be intimate with and them to be okay with not having intercourse. So if I would talk to a a new person and uh I would say, oh, by the way, I I can't have intercourse or I can have sex. I say sex usually, nobody really uses the word intercourse too often. I can't have intercourse with you. Right. So that usually they're like, oh, well, you're a great girl. I I don't really need sex anymore. I'm, you know, I'm in my early 50s, whatever it is. I don't really need sex. It's not really important. I think it's gonna be okay. I don't really need it. I'm like, okay, you're totally gonna just cheat on me and get it from somebody else. I'm like, okay, no. And I said, no, I I just rather not be with somebody that that doesn't have ED right now. So one guy said, uh, you have the perfect reason for why somebody wouldn't want to be with you. And I said, Wow. Okay, thank you. That's why I'm creating my app, which is fine, you know. And you know, I did have a guy say, you know, sex is important to me. I I couldn't be with you. And I was like, you know what? I'd rather you say that instead of trying to convince yourself that it isn't necessary or whatever. And uh, I had a guy say, Who cares? You can't have sex, you have other holes. Oh, wow, I really want to be with you now, guy. I've heard that three times. Yeah. Oh, you just haven't been with the right person. Oh, you just haven't had an orgasm with me before. That's why, you know, wait till you're with me, I'll fix you. And that's when I want a lot of guys are like, you know what? I can't be fixed. That's what I keep saying to people. I cannot be fixed, and I don't want to be fixed. And what makes you so special where I want to see if you can fix me. And if I do say, like, well, my condition is curable or treatable if I have vaginal therapy, I use dilators, and then they're like, oh, really? And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to fix myself because I'm tired of using the dilators for other people. Right. I need to use it for myself, and I I just don't want to fix it. And I don't want women to think, if they do have vaginism, that they're never going to have intercourse. It's just me that's just saying that. That's my preference. That's why I decided to create the app, is just because I knew I wasn't alone. There was other men out there that that were embarrassed to date. Imagine the what they feel when they're on a date with somebody or they they're starting to get intimate with somebody, and then they have to say, Oh, I I have ED. Is that okay? I just have prostate cancer, you know. Can you imagine that how they feel? And I thought that's how I would feel as well. So that's why I created the dating app in twine, just because we need to be loved too, even if our vaginas and uh penises are broken.

SPEAKER_00:

Did you talk to men with ED or was this mostly, I guess, you listening to the experiences from your girlfriends who's had encounters with men with ED?

SPEAKER_01:

I have talked to a f a few men, so I would put my information on Facebook about my app, and then I would ask them questions actually, and I say, you know, how do you feel with your issue? Some have ED and they they're treatable with Fiagra. But I talked to one man that said, I have to use penile injections. I have to inject my penis with injections prior to having intercourse because I don't want to do that anymore. It's so painful. And I said, Well, are you doing it for yourself or are you doing it for your partner? He's like, Well, it's more for the other person because I could just do without I'm tired of dealing with that pain. Or a lot of them are like, Well, I was in a long relationship. They said they were okay with my ED, but they were actually have intercourse with somebody else. And it's very hurtful to them. They know they've rejected. And then and they're also struggling with the fact, like, when do I tell the woman that that I have ED? You know, are they gonna laugh at me, or they're gonna ghost me? And most of the times that's what they say is that they they just get rejected because of their limitations, and that's just why I'm doing my app. This is not fair. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

And so is your app for both men and women? Yes. Okay. And tell us how it works.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you go to onto Entwinedating.com, uh you can hit download the app. It's available in uh the Play Store, Google Play Store. And for now, it's not available in Apple yet, but you can still use it as a uh web-based app on your Apple device. You basically create a profile and see if you're interested in men or women or both, and you can start swiping. It's actually a little heart or a little X. So if you like the person, use it hard and and the X if you don't. It's a free app. And uh if you connect with the same person, uh you'll receive a notification and then you can start chatting with that person to see that's when you can disclose what type of sexual limitations that you do have. And of course you don't have to right away, but basically anybody that does sign up with the app, they know right away cards are on the table, I have this issue, we're not gonna have intercourse, so you don't have to even talk about it. And you could talk about later on once you feel comfortable, but it takes that fear away. It takes that topic of conversation off the table right away, too. Instead of saying, you know, right away, you know, I kinda like you, but you know, I wanted you to know, you know, my vagina's broken, and then who knows what can happen. I mean, it should be one of the factors in the relationship, but but for people like us, we don't have that as a possibility sometimes.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah. So just for people who maybe haven't tried dating apps, including myself, I think the way you're describing it is that, you know, you sign up for the app, you create a profile, and you're basically presented with profiles of other people who are on the app. Yes. It's people that sign up and set up a profile, they can decide if they want to disclose what limitations they might have in their profile.

SPEAKER_01:

In their about me section, they can put as much information as they want. It's just launched a few weeks ago. That's another thing too. I want to mention is that when they do sign up, just be patient because it's gonna take some time to have the database grow. I'm just trying to spread the word as fast as possible. So there's actually different countries that are already contacting me from India, Canada. They said, please, we need this app in our country, please. And I'm like, I know I want to help you too. I do. I just want to make sure it works in the US first, and then eventually I want to hopefully this will be my dream would be to have it available worldwide. But in my initial research, I did uh how many men in the world have ED? And it was like almost 300 million men have ED. And in the US alone, it was like 33 million. So I don't know the statistics for women, but when I saw that from men, I was like, wow, that's a lot. That's a lot of people that have that.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. I think it's really awesome that you developed this product. Do you have background in software development? How did this come about? Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So I'm I am actually a medical transcriptionist right now. So I just typed doctor notes and I was always a secretary all my life. My ex was a CFO, so he has obviously a lot of business background. But I was like, am I crazy doing this? I'm like, I know nothing. I was a stay-at-home mom for a long time. And I was like, what am I doing? I'm creating an app that's so needed. I'm like, how am I gonna figure all this out? So it was a struggle. So basically, I just had to find an app developer first, and I got taken advantage of, unfortunately. But um, I was like, what do I do now? And I lost all my savings. I'm like, do I just give up? I'm like, no, do not give up. I'm like talking to myself. I did that a lot lately. And I thought I can't give up. And I found another app developer, and he's great, and and uh he got the app to launch finally. Because I actually thought of this idea October of, or I'm sorry, March of 2019. And it's just finally launched because it was such a long road of problems. Yeah, finding the right people, getting a second opinion. So yeah, second quote. But I'm definitely learning as I go. It's a tough one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but I'm rooting for you because I think it's so needed. How are your kids reacting to your new career? And you talking publicly about your broken vagina.

SPEAKER_01:

I know. I just my my son is 18, my daughter's 14. My daughter seems to understand it better. My son just, yeah, whatever, I don't care. I'm like, okay. So I try to be careful too, you know. I don't want to say too much, but you know, I'd start doing which is new to me too, is blogging. So I did a couple of blogs and one of them I titled it, Help My Vagina's broken. So I told my daughter, I said, you know what? I said, I want you to see this article first before, you know, any of your friends see it or anything. I said, I hope you're not embarrassed, but they think it's really cool that I created a dating app. They're like, okay, can we buy a house on the ocean? I'm like, oh no, no, no. I go, I'm not getting rich off of this. You know, they're like, can I have a Lamborghini when I get, you know, when I get my license? No. What about Land Roller? No. But that's my message to people too. Or when I talk about this, people automatically are like, oh, you're gonna get rich. I don't want to get rich. I said, you know, of course I would like to make money so I can support this app, but my main goal is to help people. And and I love helping people. And I feel like everything happens for a reason. I always say that people, some people hate saying that, but I'm like, what's the reason I got cancer? And I thought, this is the reason I had cancer. It's just so, you know, I had to go through all these struggles, all these surgeries, endometriosis, vaginismus, all that stuff for a reason. And that reason was to develop this app because it's needed. Like there's hundreds of dating apps out there, none of them are like this. And it's but my kids think it's pretty cool. They just have to step thinking that we're gonna be living in California beach somewhere one day.

SPEAKER_00:

But I mean, they always say, you know, if you're solving a problem, which clearly you are, the money will follow. So hopefully one day you will be getting a Lamborghini.

SPEAKER_01:

But again, if I don't, it's okay. Right. What I look forward to the most is hearing the success stories. I can't wait for people to be like, oh my gosh, I found someone that thinks you. So it's I think that's worth more than any type of money. Yeah. Can't wait for that part. Awesome. So exciting.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and so before we wrap though, I want to ask, because you've developed this app for single people who are having challenges because of uh sexual limitations. What advice do you have to people who are still in relationships but are dealing with sexual limitations?

SPEAKER_01:

As far as if they're at the end of the relationship, because a lot of times people are with their significant other with their issue and they're scared to leave because they're like, who's gonna want to be with me? You know, so if they're in a good relationship where they're not even thinking about leaving them, just focus on the the other parts of intimacy. Because even if if your partner can't have intercourse, they still want the other types of affection, the other types of intimacy. And don't let that go away because you can't have intercourse. If you want to work with your partner and stay with them, just try to be as compassionate as possible because it's they don't want to be like that. And if they are, then you know, let's work together and find out what they desire the most because it doesn't have to be intercourse, any kind of internal penetration as far as for women. But and as far as anybody that's in the relationship and they're just being cheated on or treated poorly or put down because of their sexual limitations, don't stay with that person just because you're scared to be alone, because there is something out there. There is someone out there that will understand because their boys are the same thing, and that's why entwine is available and it can be used as a tool to help you find that companionship without that fear of being rejected and embarrassed. I love this. Thank you, Serena. Is there anything else you want to share before we close? Um, if you'd like to follow me on social media, you can follow me on Instagram and Facebook, and of course, entwinedating.com. It's e-n-t-w-in-edating.com. And you feel free to email me at the bottom of the screen. I believe it says hello with entwined dating.com. You can email me and I could personally respond and answer any kind of questions you have.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Anna, thank you so much for taking some time to talk about this really important topic. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Serena. It's so nice talking to you. I know this episode probably feels different from the rest. Because Anna and I ended up going on a deep dive about her experience with vaginismus. But I thought it was important that we give space for this topic, because even though Anna's experience is specific to having vaginismus, her underlying message is relevant to anyone dealing with sexual limitations after cancer treatment. Anna reminded us that sex and intimacy can come in many forms, and when our loved ones' sexual needs change because of serious health issues or emotional stress, expanding our definitions of sex and intimacy can give us more options for supporting each other's needs. Thanks again to Anna for sharing her own experience with such openness and a sense of humor. Go check out Entwine so you can explore dating with more confidence again. And that's a wrap for today. Please consider following the podcast if these stories are resonating with you. Also, if there's something you would like to hear more about on the show, you can contact me by emailing info at talkabout cancer podcast.com. Thank you for listening.